» Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Prime Minister’s press conference

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[This is the transcript of one of the Prime Minister’s occasional press conferences; these
are the words of the Prime Minister giving a statement and answering the
questions of journalists. Unlike the PMOS’s briefings, this is a more-or-less
verbatim transcript of the Prime Minister’s words. Such press conferences
happen about once a month, and occasionally more often.]

Prime Minister

Good Morning everyone. You will no doubt want to ask me about the results, so I will say a few words first if I might. Iraq has dominated the agenda over many months and there is no point in pretending otherwise. I understand the strong feelings it has aroused in positions of leadership, you have to take what you believe to be the right decision for the country, and that is not always the same as the popular decision. But I should say to you that I believe every bit as passionately now that rogue states, terrorism and weapons of mass destruction are indeed the security threat of the 21st century and we have to confront them. They will not go away if we ignore them. I believe we were right to take military action and remove Saddam Hussein from power and that the judgment will increasingly be seen to have been right as time goes on. The new United Nations Security Council resolution last week shows the world wants, and is united in wanting, a free democratic secure Iraq, speaking with one voice against the terrorists who wish to turn the clock back.

Although the focus has been on Iraq, it is also true to say that I think one of the things that came through over the past few weeks is the real progress on the National Health Service, on education, on law and order. This progress is changing the lives of millions of people up and down the country. The economy is strong, we have got almost 2 million people more in work than in 1997, there are more police and crime is down, every single National Health Service indicator is in a better place. As I say to you repeatedly, if you look at cancer deaths or cardiac deaths, they are down significantly from a few years ago. And if we look also at school results and the additional numbers of teachers and classroom assistants, these again are in a far better position than in 1997.

We want to take all of this further, and now is not the time for a change in direction, but it is the time for a change of gear. That is why over the coming weeks and months, starting with the National Health Service proposals, the government will be publishing our next steps to improve public services, and as I think some of you know, these have been planned and worked on for many, many months. We have laid the foundations, but it is precisely because of that success that we can go further and faster and the challenge now is to base those services around the needs of those who use them, to put the patient first, to put the law abiding citizen first, to put the parent and the pupil first, to make sure that choice is available to the many and not the few, and to make sure that equity and excellence go hand in hand.

Finally, we obviously have to get the right deal for Britain at the Intergovernmental Conference this weekend, that means an agreement that allows Europe to work more effectively, but also means that we maintain our right to determine policy in areas of our vital national interest. We want a Europe that makes Britain stronger and safer and more prosperous, but which recognises our sovereignty in those vital areas like tax and social security, defence, foreign policy, the key areas of criminal procedural law. We are making progress. There are issues where we still have concerns and others have concerns as well, such as the status of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, but we are going to negotiate constructively, seeking to do a deal, but it must of course be consistent with the commitments that we have given parliament and the country. What we will not do is to marginalise Britain in Europe simply for the sake of it. It is in Britain’s interest to be at the heart of Europe in terms of jobs and trade and political influence. Whatever the problems and difficulties with Europe, the answer to them is to get our way in Europe, to be prepared to change and reform Europe, but it is certainly not renegotiation or withdrawal.

No politician can afford to be deaf to the voice of the electorate. There are clearly big challenges ahead for the country, concerns that we have to address, big arguments to be won about the future direction of policy in this country, but these are arguments that I intend to win.

Question

Prime Minister, a transfer of sovereignty question. 2.7 million people voted for Ukip in the European elections, are they all completely deluded? And you keep saying, you have said on many occasions in the past, that you have to go out and win the argument on Europe, and it seems to some people that that moment never quite comes, so when?

Prime Minister

I think people expected a few years ago that we would have a referendum on the single currency, but we have not had a referendum on the single currency because the economic conditions haven’t been met, and indeed I think you would be quite hard put to find many people in business, or even people with a very long track record, in favour of Europe who were saying we should put that issue to the people now. But we have an opportunity if we can get an agreement, the right agreement, to this new treaty, we have said that we will put it to people in a referendum and that will give us the chance to make the argument to people because I believe that when the argument is made, I don’t disrespect the votes of people who have voted for any political party, of course you always take account of that, but you have also got to fight for what you believe in. And I believe passionately that Britain’s place is at the centre of Europe, I think it would be an act of extraordinary foolishness for us as a country in the early 21st century to withdraw from the biggest political alliance in the world and the biggest economic market, right on our doorstep, where we do 60% of our trade, where millions of British jobs depend. So there is an argument that has got to be had, but that is politics, and we shall go out and have it.

QUESTION:

You say that you are not deaf to what the electorate is saying, but where is the evidence that you have heard what they are saying? What have you learnt, what are you going to change, and on the constitution can you tell us that if the deal on offer stays that you will reject the deal?

Prime Minister

On the latter point we have got the concerns we have always set out. We have laid out our position to parliament, to the country and we will keep to that, but I am reasonably optimistic that we will negotiate the agreement that we want, which allows Europe to function more effectively, but also make sure that on these vital areas like tax, and foreign policy and defence and so on, our ultimate right to determine our own policy remains with us. And we are not the only country incidentally that is going into this set of negotiations with issues, there are a whole range of issues, particularly to do with voting rights, that still have not in fact been resolved, but let’s wait and see on that. On listening, of course it is important, but I think what people want to know is that the programme upon which we were elected in 1997, the values that underpin that programme, the position that we have, that I have personally as Prime Minister being elected in 1997, remains the same, and that those things that are about a strong economy where opportunity is for the many and not for the few, where we banish mass unemployment and introduce full employment, where we have public services that are free at the point of use for people that provide quality and excellent service, where we tackle these issues of crime and law and order on our streets, they want to know that those are the issues that still motivate me, get me up in the morning, make me want to do the job, and they are. Now I have got to go out and persuade people of that and convince them of it, and particularly in circumstances where for very understandable reasons in the last year or 15 months, foreign policy issues have not actually dominated my workload but have dominated the agenda.

Question

But if you look at the votes in the European election, a clear majority of voters actually supported parties who oppose in principle the idea of a European constitution, and bearing in mind this wasn’t in the Labour manifesto at the last general election, why do you even think you have got a mandate to commit Britain to a European constitution? I know you are putting on the lock of a referendum, but what is the basis on which you are taking Britain into this, given that people clearly don’t want it.

Prime Minister

But surely that is the very point, isn’t it? We have said that if we agree a treaty this weekend, this will ultimately be put to the British people in a referendum, and then the battle will be joined, that is when it will be joined, not simply in the European elections but actually saying to people this ultimately will be your choice. I will tell you as Prime Minister what I think and what I ask you to support, but in the end the choice will be yours. Now surely that is the right and democratic way to decide it.

Question

But it is not listening though, is it?

Prime Minister

I think it absolutely is listening. I think that people want to know that if there is a treaty they want to know that ultimately the say will be with them. You can’t say on the basis of any election result well you are not entitled to do this, or you are not entitled to do that, in circumstances where you as a government are elected on a particular programme. Now I think that it is important for us to try our best to negotiate a treaty that will preserve absolutely Britain’s freedom to decide its tax rates and foreign policy and defence and all the rest of it, but allows an enlarged Europe of 25 countries to work more effectively. But I have said to people, and this is where we have listened, we listen to the arguments that people say we want a referendum on this because ultimately it is sufficiently important that we want to have the final say, and we have given people that. Now I think that is a fair way of proceeding.

QUESTION:

You have dismissed those in the past who are critical of Europe as phobes and sceptics, and I think you would agree that the election results show that phobes and sceptics, and I think you would agree that the election results shows that those phobes and sceptics make up a very large proportion of the British public. How can you justify therefore going into the talks on Friday and being prepared to sign up to a constitution, which you yourself opposed and didn’t want, and which contains red lines which have to protect us and our national interest against it.

Prime Minister

First of all let me just make one thing clear, I don’t dismiss anybody in these arguments, I don’t dismiss people at all. But I think what politics is about ultimately is being able to debate and have an argument about an issue, and Europe is a serious issue. Now I don’t disrespect people like yourself and other people who think that Britain’s place actually is better off outside of Europe and outside of the European Union, but I happen to think that that is the wrong position for our country. I think that in the end the benefits of Britain’s membership of the European Union far outweigh the disadvantages. And in respect of the constitution, as I say, we will give people the ultimate say, I think that is the way it should be, and by giving people a say in the referendum, I can put my case, you and others will put your case and let the people decide, but let it be decided on the basis of a genuine debate, and a debate that we can have then – if I can say this bluntly – which will be on the basis of the reality of the treaty agreed, not some of the stories about what the treaty is and isn’t going to do that I believe are, let us say, somewhat exaggerated.

QUESTION:

I just want to get at your broad approach to the European Union in a way. Do you believe in some areas that integration, or pooling of sovereignty if you want to call it that, but in some areas the answer is to go further with integration?

Prime Minister

I believe in some areas it is absolutely essential for us to work with others in Europe and to cooperate, and indeed to have qualified majority voting to do so. Let me give you a classic example. The single biggest challenge we face, not just for European reform, but for getting the world trade round under way, with all the benefits that has got for the world economy, is agriculture. We cannot reform European agriculture if the veto is there. And therefore the existence of qualified majority voting has been to our benefit. And all I am saying is of course there will be areas in which it is absolutely necessary that we pool sovereignty; in other areas, like foreign policy and defence, we have got to retain our ultimate right to decide our own policy, though for example there are areas in which we will want to co-ordinate a European position, and that can be helpful. On issues to do with climate change for example and the environment, it is the three Foreign Ministers of Britain, Germany and France that have been handling many of the negotiations with Iran recently over Iran’s nuclear weapons possibilities. So we should just take a practical approach to Europe, but in the end, this is what I find strange about this, you have a situation where we as a country have probably got an almost unique position in the world, because we are the strongest ally of the United States of America that is the world’s only super power, the most powerful nation in the world, and we are members of the biggest political alliance and biggest economic market in the world through Europe. Why should we give either of these two things up? That is the question I ask people, why give either of them up. And yet on the one hand people say to me, this relationship with America, you want to distance yourself, and on the other hand people say get out of the European Union. I say stay with both. Other countries would stay with both, most countries would give their eye teeth to have a strength in both the European Union and with the United States of America, and if there are tensions from time to time, fine, resolve them, but don’t give up either pillar of what is an immensely strong and influential foreign policy.

Question

The Governor of the Bank of England has warned that people thinking of buying houses basically shouldn’t do so because prices are going to fall and rates are going to carry on going up. Do you think he was right to give that warning?

Prime Minister

I don’t know whether he put it in quite those terms and I think one should look at his words very carefully. I was thinking of how I would respond to this question, and I just think what I should really say to you is that we have introduced the system where the Bank of England is responsible for the setting of monetary policy and interest rates. I think we are best to let them do that obviously, and I don’t think there is any point in me being a pundit about what the Governor has said. My information on this is the same as anyone else’s, and my speculation probably is not particularly helpful. He said what he said, for the reasons that he has given, and I think those words stand on their own.

Question

Melvyn King has said that household debt, which is approaching the UK’s annual GDP, is secured on overpriced houses, and you are saying well that is the Bank of England’s problem.

Prime Minister

I am not saying it is the Bank of England’s problem, it is the Bank of England’s responsibility to set interest rates. But let’s not forget, our economy has probably been the most successfully performing economy of any of the major economies of the past few years. Interest rates, yes it is true that they have gone up just recently by a quarter of a percent, following another quarter of a percent rise, but let’s not forget where we were 10 – 15 years ago when interest rates were at 10% and we had negative equity and all the rest of it. And what the Bank of England is doing is simply setting out its position, that is fine, that is their job to set it out. Our job is to try and make sure we have in place the right framework of economic policy to keep the stability that has been so hard won and so good for the country, and we are doing that.

Question

You have said before that the state of Africa is a scar on the conscience of the world. In terms of your personal conscience, are you comfortable in your own mind that you and your government have done, and are doing, and will do everything you possibly can and could have done for the people of Dafur in western Sudan?

Prime Minister

Well we are doing our best, but we are looking to see what more we can do. Remember we are I think the second biggest bilateral donor in the world to Sudan. Hilary Benn went there just a few days ago precisely in order to make sure that we are doing everything we can to co-ordinate the humanitarian aid. It was a big part of our discussion at the G8, we issued a statement on it and I will keep in touch with developments there very precisely indeed, and I think it is an important issue. We need the politics moving in the right direction and the humanitarian aid. And so the answer to your question is I believe we are doing all we can, but we constantly re-assess that, and so we should.

Question

Mr Alawi, the new leader of Iraq, has been announcing his relationship with the CIA and MI6, and that was the reason for creating tremendous distrust in the Arab world. Do you think his fate will be the same fate as Chalabi, first of all, and how can you assure the Arab neighbours that you are not planting a spy on the Arab world?

Prime Minister

I think most people who have listened to Prime Minister Alawi in the Arab world recognise that he is someone who is a patriot of Iraq who is trying to do his best for the country, and I think the choice has won a lot of support. And one thing I would just say about this is that it is incredibly unfair when people hold against someone like Mr Alawi that he had contact with the British and American governments during the period of his exile. People are bound to do that. But he is somebody who has been chosen by the United Nations to lead Iraq because people believe he is the best person to do this. And I think you can already see from the moves that he is making why it is his appointment was so much welcomed.

Question

You talked about choice, Michael Howard is making a speech about choice at the moment in the public services, but the concrete is never quite clear about this. I have got three kids at primary school, what is choice going to mean for them?

Prime Minister

Well in respect of schools, the more that we increase the quality and diversity of school provision, the more choice that people have, and that is why we have now got the specialist schools, the city academies now starting, you have got the beacon schools, the foundation schools, you have got a whole series of different schools that provide choice for people. We are saying we would provide the choice within the National Health Service, free at the point of use, now that is a major difference between the two. But I can tell you our policy is to provide a greater diversity of choice within the system so that we move beyond the traditional comprehensives to a range of different types of schools. And one of the things that is really interesting is to read the recent studies that have been done on how specialist schools, and remember half of the secondary schools in the country are now specialist schools, they have been out-performing traditional comprehensives in a big way, and I think that is important. Now there are some very good traditional comprehensives, don’t misunderstand me, but the fact is the specialist school system is actually levering up higher standards.

Question

You stressed, in answer to Oonagh, the importance of the Bank of England in setting interest rates in this country and its role in the housing market. Given the particular importance of housing in this country and its volatility, why do you think it would ever be right to hand over decisions on interest rates to an institution which would have to take them across the whole of Europe.

Prime Minister

You mean why join the single currency?

Question

… in Europe.

Prime Minister

The question is in the end, would membership of the single currency give us lower interest rates and therefore a better deal for mortgage holders.

Question

… decide them across the whole of Europe, whereas the Bank of England is thinking particularly about interest rates here.

Prime Minister

That is why, if there was sufficient convergence in your economic cycles so that it was right to join the single currency on economic grounds, and you thought, and remember interest rates have been lower in continental Europe than here over a long period of time, so that just restates if you like the argument about a single currency, and the argument for a single currency is that if the economic conditions are there, it is the right thing to do, and the economic conditions are essentially about the convergency of your economy so that even though you are setting an interest rate for different countries, nonetheless the convergence is such that that is not a problem, and it will mean better interest rates and lower interest rates for us. Now at the moment, as we say, we don’t believe that those economic conditions are present, but that is I think the nature of the argument.

Question

Is perhaps the lesson from last weekend’s election results, not that you need to listen to the British people, but the British people are no longer listening to you in substantial numbers?

Prime Minister

Well I think that the issue is whether people believe that we are concentrating on the questions that they really want us to concentrate on. Iraq was obviously an issue, though I think it is important to express how Iraq was an issue. I think Iraq was an issue obviously for some people because they strongly disagreed with the action, well that is a disagreement that is there, but I think the other part of it, and this came back from our Members of Parliament, is that people want to know that even with all the stuff that is going on in foreign affairs, I am actually concentrating on the issues that worry them in their lives, their living standards, the state of the economy, jobs, the National Health Service, schools, anti-social behaviour. Now I said to someone the other day, the most amount of meetings I have had in the last year on any one subject have probably been on crime and antisocial behaviour, but it is not hitting the headlines. So what is important is that the public and people understand that the very things that worry them and concern them are the issues that we are working on. And I think the interesting thing is, when I was going round the country and doing interviews, in virtually every part of the country you were in, people were increasingly saying OK we give you that the economy is strong and there are more jobs, and the Health Service is getting better and we can see the money in the schools, and even increasingly, though not enough yet in my view, people saying OK we can notice more police on the street. But what they were then saying is that even with all that, why aren’t people accepting it, and I was saying because I think that takes time for people to appreciate and understand this is the result of policy decisions that have been taken that we have been driving through the whole time. I think asylum and immigration was a big issue in the election actually, less focus has come on that. But again what is important is that people realise for 2 – 3 years we have been working on making sure that our asylum system is sorted out, and we now actually have levels of asylum seekers in this country probably at, or even perhaps now below, the level we inherited 7 years ago with a system that has had to undergo a complete overhaul from the absolute chaos we inherited when it used to take 15 months to settle an asylum claim. So I think all of these things play a part.

Question

Going back to Europe, the protest vote, perhaps yes about national issues, perhaps about Iraq, but actually mainly throughout Europe about the whole concept of the European Union as a super state, the European people actually voting and protesting against that. Is it actually better to go back to a series of agreements and trade agreements that was best for each nation, rather than going to a constitution, putting the cart before the horse?

Prime Minister

First of all let me just make a point on the European poll, I think what is interesting is that in the rest of Europe, the governing party also did not do well, and the governing party did not do well here, but the difference is in the rest of Europe the vote mainly went to the chief opposition party, it didn’t happen here. But I think you are right to this extent, I think we need to make sure we get the treaty changes that allow Europe to work more effectively, because plainly if you are a Europe of 25 or 30, it is not the same as a Europe of 15. So that is why it is important that we do this. But I think where you have got a point, and I think this is something that I think needs to be reflected on across Europe, is that I think what people in Europe really want us as leaders in Europe to concentrate on are the issues to do with economic growth and prosperity and security, and I think that if they see us continually in an argument or a wrangle about what are at points quite arcane constitutional issues, they worry about whether we have got our focus right, and in my view when we sort the issue of the treaty and get that out of the way, it is very important for us as a European leadership and with the new European Commission to get back to those fundamental issues of economic prosperity and security, which are really the two issues that I think worry people in Europe and where I think people do actually think it is sensible for Europe to cooperate together.

Question

You keep saying that you want to see a constitution that enables Europe to work more effectively, but how can you avoid decision gridlock in a Europe of 25 nations without much more majority voting? And in what areas are you prepared to see less exercise of the national veto and more majority voting? You keep telling us about your red lines, can you be a little more precise about those? Is there any area of taxation or social security where you are prepared to see majority voting come in, even on the technicalities?

Prime Minister

I don’t believe that it is right for us to lose the ability to say no to a proposal on harmonising tax and social security, because I think we need to have that right. That is not to say, incidentally, that you can’t agree certain issues on these areas. But you see we have already, across a range of issues, particularly in relation to the single European market, agreed greater qualified majority voting, but my point here is that I don’t actually agree that Europe needs qualified majority voting on tax in order to work properly. I think if we have competition in tax policy it is a good thing, not a bad thing, so I just don’t see the need for that. But there are lots of issues, and I was mentioning one a moment or two ago in respect of agriculture, but for example some of the issues in relation to European patents and other issues, of course you can have qualified majority voting and it is sensible to have it with a Europe of 25. But it is hard for me to concede the issue on tax or social security because I simply don’t see what the benefit of that is to Europe, never mind to Britain.

Question

While protecting the veto on foreign policy, would you accept in principle the creation of a European Foreign Minister? And last Thursday there were some remarkable Labour gains in Hartlepool, does that mean that you would be quite happy to make Peter Mandelson the Commissioner, even though it would mean a by-election?

Prime Minister

I will pass on the question of who is going to be the Commissioner, no decision has been taken on that at all, which won’t stop you guys writing on it, but nonetheless no decision has actually been taken. In respect of the Foreign Minister, we have the person who goes by the complicated title of the High Representative at the moment on the Common Foreign and Security Policy, and he is mandated by the Council. That will remain. There is no way that we are going to have an independent Foreign Minister acting under the aegis of the Commission, that is not going to happen and I don’t believe any other country wants to see that, well maybe one or two do but none of the main countries want to see it.

QUESTION:

I understand you have been out of the country a lot lately, but you will obviously have been around during the local and European election campaign enough to see the explosion in the number of St George’s Cross flags being flown in most parts of England. I would like to ask, do you consider that on the one hand a sinister development indicating a sort of nationalism that could threaten the Celtic tribes, or do you think it is a welcome reappropriation of the English national symbol? And if the latter is your point of view, why do no government buildings ever seem to fly the St George’s Cross, if not in a football tournament, even on St George’s Day? I notice you have two flagpoles above No 10, will you fly the flag?

Prime Minister

We probably fly the British flag because we are the UK government, but no I don’t see that it is sinister in the least, and I think especially with Euro 2004 going on it is absolutely unsurprising. I hope that is the answer you wanted, Patrick. I will see what you do with it tomorrow.

Question

My question is about the EU as well, but from a different angle. The EU’s Human Rights Commission is at the moment in Iran negotiating about human rights in Iran, but many, including Human Rights Watch, are criticising the EU for compromising human rights and democracy in Iran for other more urgent matters. Do you agree with this criticism?

Prime Minister

No, and we shouldn’t compromise human rights in Iran for that reason, although it is obviously important that we make progress on the nuclear weapons issue with Iran. But I think one of the most significant things to come out of the G8 last week, and if I can say this respectfully, not enough people have focused on what is actually a very important shift in American policy, now mirrored in the rest of the world, and that is a sense in which we understand that you cannot defeat security threats by security measures alone, and that what we have set out is a vision for the Middle East that is about a stable and democratic Iraq, that is about greater democracy and human rights in the Middle East and is about reinvigorating the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, and all of those three things are necessary. And if I have got any plea of real urgency, it is that the last one of those – the Palestinian-Israeli issue – has to be we have to come back to that and move that forward, otherwise I think we will find that the festering of that problem continues to be a recruiting sergeant for terrorism.

Question

You have stressed that your government is committed to the Middle East peace process that is based on the road map, and you expressed your support for Mr Sharon’s plan to withdraw from Gaza and parts of the West Bank, but some analysis actually suggested recently that those settlers who are going to be affected by the plan will be instated in the Golan Heights. How would you respond to that? My second question is regarding the EU-Syria Partnership Agreement, has your government changed its position on that after the visit to Syria by Baroness Symons, and the letter you delivered to President Assad?

Prime Minister

Our position remains the same, but we believe it is important to keep up pressure on all states within the region to come into compliance with international obligations. In respect of the first, no I certainly would not want to see the Israeli disengagement plan lead to those consequences. I do think what is important is that we try and take the first steps to get back into the road map process, but that has got to be done by security measures and that is what we are working on now, and it has also got to be stressed of course that the disengagement from the Gaza and parts of the West Bank is not the conclusion of the final status negotiations.

Question

Up and down the country good schools that enjoy a good reputation, and most of them will still be good comprehensive schools, are over subscribed, and every single year parents in their thousands are rejected from the schools of their choice. What do you say to these parents about choice, and do you not see that perhaps that is why they don’t believe what politicians say because in reality they have got no choice?

Prime Minister

It is precisely for that reason, you have to wait until we publish our schools proposals, but we want to make it easier for successful schools to expand and indeed for schools to be started, because we think that is an important part of opening up the whole system. Basically what we are trying to do with the public services is to change monolithic services into services which are far more centred around the user of those services, which are more diverse in their supply, which ensure that if people are getting a bad service that they have got the ability to go elsewhere. That is what we are trying to do. And in schools I think that does mean freeing the system up, allowing greater innovation, greater diversity, greater numbers of different types of schools, and also for successful schools to be able to expand where they wish to do so. Again I have many, many meetings on this issue, but if you look at what is happening with the city academy programme, and these schools are now starting up in different parts of the country, they are having a dramatic effect on the education of some of the poorest children in the whole of our country. They are getting for the first time, and they are not elite schools for elite children at all, what they are are schools dealing with mixed ability kids, often from the poorest backgrounds, and they are providing superb high quality education and we have got to take that and expand that across the system.

Question

Just about your domestic plans, your 5 year plan, isn’t there a risk that we are going to get another set of targets, when in fact the public just want you to achieve the targets you have already set yourself? And secondly, could I not ask you whether you are setting yourself up with yet another confrontation with your own party by emphasising diversity, choice in the private sector in the expansion of public services, when the last thing you need is another confrontation of that kind?

Prime Minister

Well we have just got to do the right thing by the country. But remember this is a government that has delivered record numbers of jobs, that has delivered the biggest ever programme for tackling unemployment, that has delivered in respect of Britain we are the only major government anywhere in the western world that last year and the year before, this year and the next year, will be increasing health and education spending as a proportion of our national income, and we have introduced a minimum wage and help for the poorest children and poorest pensioners in our country. But we have also as a result of reform and change within our public services produced a situation where we now have really quite significant falls in the amount of time people have to wait, in their ability to get their operation done quickly, in people being able to access their GP. If you go to an accident and emergency department you can see changes that have been happening as a result of the changes that we have introduced, additional numbers of nurses and doctors, it is true, but also working in a different and better way. And all the way through, what we have got to do is to continue to make the changes that are necessary in order to ensure that yes we do the things that people have elected us to do, but recognise that we will only do them if we employ new methods of doing them, and that is what the whole thing is about. And I don’t think there will be a great confrontation within the party over it at all. If you look at what is happening now for example with the private sector having to reduce its prices in healthcare, that is as a result of reforms that we have introduced, and that is why in many parts of the country now people are not having to wait as long as they used to, that is great and we have got to take it further. It is not a question of targets, it is a question of making sure that those reforms carry on, and we will carry on making the changes in this country because I believe the basic position is if you like, which is to say we will run a strong economy, with good relations with business, but at the same time make sure that we expand opportunity for the many and not the few. That is basically the right position and it keeps together the coalition that brought us to power and that I think underneath all the problems and difficulties is still there for us, which is the problems of people at the bottom who want to rise, and the problems of middle class people who want to aspire and do even better, but still have some sense of compassion for other people in society, and that is the coalition that brought us to power and we have got to keep it intact.

Question

How bad would it possibly be if you got no agreement whatsoever on the constitution in Brussels? Who would really care? Isn’t Dennis Skinner right to say that the best thing for you and the country is to kick the whole thing into the long grass for as long as possible as long as you are not seen putting the boot to it?

Prime Minister

I think the reason for it is the reason I have given. A Europe working at 25 countries, not 15, or even 30 countries, not 15, is a Europe that needs change and I think there are real gains in this. It is important that we ward off the dangers. Just think of this situation, if we want Europe to get things done on the key issues, which as I say in my view are the economy and security, how is Europe going to do that with a six monthly rotating Presidency, when you might have a string of very small countries having to handle the whole business of the European Union over a period of years? It will be very, very hard. How are you going to have a Commission operating effectively if everyone keeps the Commission as it is now? So I think there are genuinely good technocratic reasons for the treaty, but what we can’t have obviously is some move towards some sort of superstate, and we don’t want that, and I can assure you from my conversations with other European leaders, the majority of the others at least don’t want that either.

Question

Prime Minister, in your opening remarks you said that now you believe more than ever that you were right to take military action in Iraq and that history will bear you out. Two questions on that. Do you believe privately that each and every member of your Cabinet believes the same thing as you do, and secondly do you believe that the Butler Commission, whatever it recommends, will you implement each and every one of its recommendations?

Prime Minister

I think I should wait until I see what they are before I give quite that open-ended commitment. In respect of the first, we don’t do these sort of psychological assessments of people. All I know is that it was a unified Cabinet decision and those people that didn’t agree with it resigned at the time.

Question

You’ve just expressed your doubts about small countries being part of the rotating Presidency …

Prime Minister

Not Holland. No, they are very, very good. They’re very, very good. In fact they’re absolutely excellent. And you’re not a small country anyway are you, really? You’ve got a good football team too.

Question

Can I continue with my question. Well, the Dutch are taking over the rotating Presidency on 1 July. Now what issues do you think should be dealt with within the next six months, and what chance is there that these issues are actually being dealt with?

Prime Minister

Well, you know, we’ve set out with the Dutch and with the Irish Presidency, because we take on these issues at a later stage, and we’ve actually set out with Holland our view that one of the key things that Europe has got to do – and I believe this would both shake Europe up in the right way, and also be a popular move across Europe – we’ve got to make sure that we cut down on the unnecessary regulation coming out of Brussels, and I think there is a very strong feeling about that across Europe. And it’s interesting, no-one could be more in favour of the European Union than Holland, but I think that you would recognise too that that is a real issue for people. Now the way to get that is not to get out of the European Union. The way to get it is to make the European Union work more effectively, and I have actually got very high hopes of the Dutch Presidency on that issue because I think they have a very clear agenda in that regard and will perform it well.

Question

Prime Minister you mentioned the achievements of the G8, but as you know there was widespread disappointment on the failure of the G8 to deliver a major breakthrough on Africa. What I’m wondering, you have said Africa will be one of your absolutely top priorities at the forthcoming G8, but can we be absolutely certain that we will see that priority reflected in the forthcoming government spending reviews.

Prime Minister

Well, as you know, we’ve made very generous additional provision in our aid and we want to carry on doing so. We did focus on Africa at the G8 this year. There was never any question of some breakthrough in that sense coming, but the Africa Commission that I’ve established will report to the G8 next year under our chairmanship, so that will be the moment at which we really decide whether we are prepared to give a big impulsion towards a different attitude on Africa and I believe that we will. I hope we will, anyway, and I will certainly be working very hard for that.

Question

But the financial decisions won’t wait till then.

Prime Minister

Well the financial decisions will be taken in the comprehensive spending review here, but we can’t take other countries’ financial decisions at the G8.

Question

I would like to ask you about the announcement of Mr Alawi, the Prime Minister of Iraqi, that his government is going to get from the Americans, I believe, to get Saddam Hussein soon to try him in Iraq. What role is Britain playing in this process of giving Saddam Hussein back to the Iraqis and do you think that the judicial system in Iraq is actually able to manage such a big trial?

Prime Minister

Well, as I said in the House of Commons yesterday, I think it is important that we work with the Iraqi Government to make sure that any tribunal or court system obeys the proper rules of international law and natural justice and I’m sure we will do so, but I think it’s important too that the decision of the prosecution and the handling of the prosecution is taken by the new Iraqi Government and that also is what we will work for.

Question

Prime Minister, you talked about taxation and social security. Bertie Ahern has published a draft text of what he feels is the best way of getting agreement. What is the one single issue in that text with which you would have a problem. What’s the one obstacle to getting agreement? And secondly, you mentioned the Charter of Fundamental Rights. What are your problems with that?

Prime Minister

Well in respect of tax, obviously we are still in discussion on that issue, but let me make it clear it’s got to be absolutely clear that there is no way that we are going to have tax harmonisation, or other people deciding our tax rates. Now there is a still a negotiation that’s continuing about that, although it is fair to say that the Irish Presidency certainly moved in our direction on it. In respect of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, there’s just a very basic problem here, and it is an issue this, but I hope that people understand why Britain takes the position that it does. We are not prepared to have anything that takes away our ability to make sure our industrial laws in this country remain as flexible as they are now. We think that has stood us in good stead. We’ve got high levels of employment, low levels of unemployment and we want to make it sure, and we have to be sure, and our legal advice has to be very clear on this, that there is no question of the European Court of Justice, whether by the front door or the back door, being able to alter those laws, and that’s why what we are saying is, it’s better that the explanations that were agreed, and this was part of a long negotiation, actually are referred to in the text itself.

Question

The next Coalition of the Willing country to be facing a General Election will be Australia and we, as Spain did, have an opposition running on a platform of complete withdrawal from Iraq. President Bush said last week that he felt that this would send a very negative message. Is that your view as well?

Prime Minister

Well my view is that you should run the Australian election in Australia. My clear commitment is to keep UK troops in Iraq for the time that it necessary to do so, but other countries have got to make their own decisions, and if you will forgive me, I don’t think it’s a very smart idea for me to interfere in your elections.

Question

Prime Minister, the United States has a consistent record of suppressing democracies and installing dictatorships or puppet regimes … so to what extent is standing on the shoulders of these triumphs in the occupation of Iraq further corrupting the moral fibre of this country by siding with a military super power whose intentions do not go very far beyond self interest?

Prime Minister

I thought Saddam was the dictator? We got rid of him and now we want the Iraqis to have a democracy.

Question

Last night for example Professor Paul was talking about Pentagon papers dating back decades talking about the oil in Iraq so …

Prime Minister

Right, but I can’t …

Question

… a consistent US policy, Prime Minister.

Prime Minister

All I can is that as far as I’m aware, what we’ve been working on with the US is doing two things. One, we got rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and two we got rid of Saddam in Iraq. And I think for the people of Afghanistan and Iraq that’s a step forward. And I think you’d be hard put to find many people in Iraq or Afghanistan who would want to go back to the Taliban or Saddam. So I can’t answer for what American policy was, but what it is now is a policy I support, and I also think that actually there has been a refusal for far too long in the international community for parts of politics, and actually some parts of the left politics to campaign against dictatorships and we should be open about it and say we want these countries – sometimes you are helping them through partnership to move towards democracy and sometimes you are achieving it in other ways but I’m in favour of the spread of democracy and freedom everywhere.

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