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	<title>Comments on: Terror Shooting</title>
	<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769</link>
	<description>Every day the Prime Minister's Spokesman meets a small coterie of political journalists known as 'the lobby' for a topical chat, or 'briefing'.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Chuck Unsworth</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3401</link>
		<author>Chuck Unsworth</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3401</guid>
		<description>Judging from the current success rates for capture of suspects without bloodshed, it's possible to arrest these individuals provided that the operations are managed properly.

All of this highlights the discrepancies arising from the Stockwell shooting, and the ridiculous posturing of senior officers in an attempt to justify such heinous behaviour.

It's perfectly possible for anyone with half a brain to devise and build lethal explosive devices with any number of different triggering mechanisms.  Even for those who may be 'educationally disadvantaged' there's always the internet with step by step instructions given on many sites. Google will turn up thousands of them.

Sir Ian's comments about this incident are just the usual smoke and mirrors nonsense.  Let us hope that the 'enquiry' is actually independent - anyone taking bets on this one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judging from the current success rates for capture of suspects without bloodshed, it&#8217;s possible to arrest these individuals provided that the operations are managed properly.</p>
<p>All of this highlights the discrepancies arising from the Stockwell shooting, and the ridiculous posturing of senior officers in an attempt to justify such heinous behaviour.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s perfectly possible for anyone with half a brain to devise and build lethal explosive devices with any number of different triggering mechanisms.  Even for those who may be &#8216;educationally disadvantaged&#8217; there&#8217;s always the internet with step by step instructions given on many sites. Google will turn up thousands of them.</p>
<p>Sir Ian&#8217;s comments about this incident are just the usual smoke and mirrors nonsense.  Let us hope that the &#8216;enquiry&#8217; is actually independent - anyone taking bets on this one?</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Todd</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3397</link>
		<author>Julian Todd</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3397</guid>
		<description>It appears that the Police Commissioner has been told he has to cling to this ridiculous hypothesis of &#34;Shoot them dead before they press the button and blow up you&#34;, or the cover for what looks to all intents and purposes as an execution policy gets blown.  No one can believe this James Bond scenario.    It doesn't work.  These are home made mechanisms.  The simple countermeasure of using a switch that triggers the bomb on release (if that's how they do it) negates this measure completely.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It appears that the Police Commissioner has been told he has to cling to this ridiculous hypothesis of &quot;Shoot them dead before they press the button and blow up you&quot;, or the cover for what looks to all intents and purposes as an execution policy gets blown.  No one can believe this James Bond scenario.    It doesn&#8217;t work.  These are home made mechanisms.  The simple countermeasure of using a switch that triggers the bomb on release (if that&#8217;s how they do it) negates this measure completely.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Unsworth</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3383</link>
		<author>Chuck Unsworth</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3383</guid>
		<description>Now Sir Ian Blair is reported as saying how dangerous it is to use TASERS against a suspect who is thought to be carrying bombs.  Clearly other experienced police officers disagree.  

What knowledge does Ian Blair actually have of explosives and the likely effect of using a TASER in these circumstances?  Have the manufacturers tested this - has anyone for that matter - or is this the usual defensive mode?

This garbage is typical of the obfuscation and cover-up policy adopted by the Met throughout this episode.  

It's also interesting to see so many armed police wandering our streets.  So, the police have brought out their toys for us all to see.

After Stockwell I shall make a point of avoiding any encounter with armed police personnel.  Can anyone vouch for the standards of training and professionalism of all of these young men and women who are nonchalantly carrying this lethal hardware about on our streets, or are we going to see more 'unfortunate' incidents?

The decision to send armed coppers out to parade in front of the public after recent events is both crass and deeply insulting to us all.  We should be seeing far less of this and much more in the way of regular foot patrols by unarmed officers on beats where they become known to their communities (and vice versa).  Mind you, I bet they'll all go home completely exhausted by all this walking they're having to do currently.

Enough of this cruising about in cars.  The only time I get to see a policeperson on foot in public these days is either after the event, or - having parked the panda up on the double yellows outside MacDonalds - making the lengthy and arduous traverse of the pavement to get his or her Big Mac and Large Fries.  What a blessing the drive-thru has become to our public servants......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now Sir Ian Blair is reported as saying how dangerous it is to use TASERS against a suspect who is thought to be carrying bombs.  Clearly other experienced police officers disagree.  </p>
<p>What knowledge does Ian Blair actually have of explosives and the likely effect of using a TASER in these circumstances?  Have the manufacturers tested this - has anyone for that matter - or is this the usual defensive mode?</p>
<p>This garbage is typical of the obfuscation and cover-up policy adopted by the Met throughout this episode.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also interesting to see so many armed police wandering our streets.  So, the police have brought out their toys for us all to see.</p>
<p>After Stockwell I shall make a point of avoiding any encounter with armed police personnel.  Can anyone vouch for the standards of training and professionalism of all of these young men and women who are nonchalantly carrying this lethal hardware about on our streets, or are we going to see more &#8216;unfortunate&#8217; incidents?</p>
<p>The decision to send armed coppers out to parade in front of the public after recent events is both crass and deeply insulting to us all.  We should be seeing far less of this and much more in the way of regular foot patrols by unarmed officers on beats where they become known to their communities (and vice versa).  Mind you, I bet they&#8217;ll all go home completely exhausted by all this walking they&#8217;re having to do currently.</p>
<p>Enough of this cruising about in cars.  The only time I get to see a policeperson on foot in public these days is either after the event, or - having parked the panda up on the double yellows outside MacDonalds - making the lengthy and arduous traverse of the pavement to get his or her Big Mac and Large Fries.  What a blessing the drive-thru has become to our public servants&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: PapaLazzzaru</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3378</link>
		<author>PapaLazzzaru</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3378</guid>
		<description>Be interesting to find out how much truth there is in the reports this morning that Jean Charles de Menezes in fact was NOT wearing a quilted jacket, and that he didn't jump the barrier. Ok, this is from his cousin, we'd expect this up to a point. If, however, there IS any truth in in, there are going to be some interesting questions asked...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Be interesting to find out how much truth there is in the reports this morning that Jean Charles de Menezes in fact was NOT wearing a quilted jacket, and that he didn&#8217;t jump the barrier. Ok, this is from his cousin, we&#8217;d expect this up to a point. If, however, there IS any truth in in, there are going to be some interesting questions asked&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Unsworth</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3377</link>
		<author>Chuck Unsworth</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3377</guid>
		<description>Interesting to note that the successful operation to arrest of one of the prime suspects was apparently achieved with the use of a TASER weapon.

Reports indicate that the individual was 'wearing' a rucksack and, if true, one might imagine that the officers involved were extremely worried.

Despite this perceived danger, they apparently did not find it necessary to hold the suspect down and shoot him eight times.

So, it's clear that a known suspect suicide bomber can be captured alive and brought in for questioning by one police force without further bloodshed.  Why is it not possible for other police forces to take action without 'unfortunately' killing innocent people?

This is exactly what weapons such as the TASER are for.  These weapons are commonly available to all police forces and are frequently deployed, if not used.  The use of a Glock pistol and the policy of shooting to kill does not help to capture anyone or stop those of like mind.  

Of course, dead men tell no tales.  In the case of the goings on at Stockwell, the officers involved - who are now on leave - may be grateful for such small mercies.  But the spooks must be slightly put out by the elimination of potentially valuable source material, so maybe there will be some fairly intense 'departmental liaison' going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting to note that the successful operation to arrest of one of the prime suspects was apparently achieved with the use of a TASER weapon.</p>
<p>Reports indicate that the individual was &#8216;wearing&#8217; a rucksack and, if true, one might imagine that the officers involved were extremely worried.</p>
<p>Despite this perceived danger, they apparently did not find it necessary to hold the suspect down and shoot him eight times.</p>
<p>So, it&#8217;s clear that a known suspect suicide bomber can be captured alive and brought in for questioning by one police force without further bloodshed.  Why is it not possible for other police forces to take action without &#8216;unfortunately&#8217; killing innocent people?</p>
<p>This is exactly what weapons such as the TASER are for.  These weapons are commonly available to all police forces and are frequently deployed, if not used.  The use of a Glock pistol and the policy of shooting to kill does not help to capture anyone or stop those of like mind.  </p>
<p>Of course, dead men tell no tales.  In the case of the goings on at Stockwell, the officers involved - who are now on leave - may be grateful for such small mercies.  But the spooks must be slightly put out by the elimination of potentially valuable source material, so maybe there will be some fairly intense &#8216;departmental liaison&#8217; going on.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian Todd</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3373</link>
		<author>Julian Todd</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 20:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3373</guid>
		<description>Since this policy was advised by the Israelis, we can guess that, had there been no eyewitnesses, this man would have died having been &#34;caught in the cross-fire&#34; between the cowboys and indians -- I mean police and terrorists -- as so many Palestinians children have been.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since this policy was advised by the Israelis, we can guess that, had there been no eyewitnesses, this man would have died having been &quot;caught in the cross-fire&quot; between the cowboys and indians &#8212; I mean police and terrorists &#8212; as so many Palestinians children have been.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Dyer</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3362</link>
		<author>Bill Dyer</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jul 2005 00:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3362</guid>
		<description>Own goal!

Terrorist 3, UK 0

Get a new coach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Own goal!</p>
<p>Terrorist 3, UK 0</p>
<p>Get a new coach.</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck Unsworth</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3361</link>
		<author>Chuck Unsworth</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:52:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3361</guid>
		<description>As one who has considerable personal experience of Brixton, Stockwell and various other parts of the South London enclave, I take a different view.  Had I been confronted and then chased by three individuals, at least one carrying a firearm and all in civilian clothes, possibly with funny 'police' hats notwithstanding, I too might have run for my life. 

It's entirely a matter for conjecture, but if their quarry was already on the floor, and guns are 'held down onto' (according to at least one eyewitness) that person, and then discharged eight times, this is unlikely to be the official 'procedure'.  If however it is the official approach I suggest that the policy should be 'reviewed' before we kill a few more.

It is much more likely that these gung-ho young officers, excited, flushed with the adrenaline of the chase, badly led, badly trained, and lacking in any form of real self-discipline simply ran amok with lethal effect.  I've heard enough of these comments that these young men are at the front line and themselves in grave danger.  Let me put it that they are in a rather stronger position than the average London Transport passenger or, indeed, what appears to be a terrified young Brazilian, whose first language is not English, and who started out that day presumably with the simple intention of going to work in a perfectly lawful way.

This shooting has highlighted the escalation of grave incursions of the last few years upon our civil liberies and rights.  The State and its officials have lost any sense of real duty to the populace.  It it outrageous that such events can take place in a civilised society.  I do not condone the actions of the bombers, who should be relentlessly hunted down and brought to justice, but it is the judicial system alone which should determine the outcomes.

All this clumsy operation has done is to polarise our fragile society even further, and to lend aid and comfort to those who would wish to bring our society down.  The police 'service' - and there's a misnomer - should make grovelling apologies for its mistake, rather than grudgingly yield ground whilst seeking to excuse the disgusting incompetence of some of its most highly trained officers.

Let us see what the IPCC manages to cobble together by way of explanation.  But that investigation in itself will add further fuel to the fires.  A major blow has been struck in the 'war on terror', unfortunately inflicted by our own people and upon us all.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one who has considerable personal experience of Brixton, Stockwell and various other parts of the South London enclave, I take a different view.  Had I been confronted and then chased by three individuals, at least one carrying a firearm and all in civilian clothes, possibly with funny &#8216;police&#8217; hats notwithstanding, I too might have run for my life. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s entirely a matter for conjecture, but if their quarry was already on the floor, and guns are &#8216;held down onto&#8217; (according to at least one eyewitness) that person, and then discharged eight times, this is unlikely to be the official &#8216;procedure&#8217;.  If however it is the official approach I suggest that the policy should be &#8216;reviewed&#8217; before we kill a few more.</p>
<p>It is much more likely that these gung-ho young officers, excited, flushed with the adrenaline of the chase, badly led, badly trained, and lacking in any form of real self-discipline simply ran amok with lethal effect.  I&#8217;ve heard enough of these comments that these young men are at the front line and themselves in grave danger.  Let me put it that they are in a rather stronger position than the average London Transport passenger or, indeed, what appears to be a terrified young Brazilian, whose first language is not English, and who started out that day presumably with the simple intention of going to work in a perfectly lawful way.</p>
<p>This shooting has highlighted the escalation of grave incursions of the last few years upon our civil liberies and rights.  The State and its officials have lost any sense of real duty to the populace.  It it outrageous that such events can take place in a civilised society.  I do not condone the actions of the bombers, who should be relentlessly hunted down and brought to justice, but it is the judicial system alone which should determine the outcomes.</p>
<p>All this clumsy operation has done is to polarise our fragile society even further, and to lend aid and comfort to those who would wish to bring our society down.  The police &#8217;service&#8217; - and there&#8217;s a misnomer - should make grovelling apologies for its mistake, rather than grudgingly yield ground whilst seeking to excuse the disgusting incompetence of some of its most highly trained officers.</p>
<p>Let us see what the IPCC manages to cobble together by way of explanation.  But that investigation in itself will add further fuel to the fires.  A major blow has been struck in the &#8216;war on terror&#8217;, unfortunately inflicted by our own people and upon us all.</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3358</link>
		<author>roger</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 13:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2005/07/25/1769#comment-3358</guid>
		<description>The poor guy got shot. He must have been able to speak english or he surely couldn't have done his (technical) job. IF they told him to stop the requisite number of times and followed the procedure laid down then the fault is his and the guy that killed him and then found he was innocent is the guy who should get compensation -and not the family back in Brazil - whether he is an illegal or legal immigrant is immaterial.
Tone needs to be a little firmer here - aplogise fine but stay firm it is NOT the UK's, or Police's fault.
We will see how things play out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The poor guy got shot. He must have been able to speak english or he surely couldn&#8217;t have done his (technical) job. IF they told him to stop the requisite number of times and followed the procedure laid down then the fault is his and the guy that killed him and then found he was innocent is the guy who should get compensation -and not the family back in Brazil - whether he is an illegal or legal immigrant is immaterial.<br />
Tone needs to be a little firmer here - aplogise fine but stay firm it is NOT the UK&#8217;s, or Police&#8217;s fault.<br />
We will see how things play out.</p>
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