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	<title>Comments on: Iraq</title>
	<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496</link>
	<description>Every day the Prime Minister's Spokesman meets a small coterie of political journalists known as 'the lobby' for a topical chat, or 'briefing'.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
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	<item>
		<title>By: volume pills</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-3588</link>
		<author>volume pills</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2005 01:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-3588</guid>
		<description>I agree with you the way you view the issue. I remember Jack London once said everything positive has a negative side; everything negative has positive side. It is also interesting to see different viewpoints &#38; learn useful things in the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you the way you view the issue. I remember Jack London once said everything positive has a negative side; everything negative has positive side. It is also interesting to see different viewpoints &amp; learn useful things in the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: buy digital cameras</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-1763</link>
		<author>buy digital cameras</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-1763</guid>
		<description>Cheaper Digital Cameras have great information on a wide range of &#60;a href=&#34;http://www.cheaper-digital-cameras.uk.com&#34;&#62;cheap digital cameras&#60;/a&#62; available online
http://www.cheaper-digital-cameras.uk.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheaper Digital Cameras have great information on a wide range of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cheaper-digital-cameras.uk.com&quot;&gt;cheap digital cameras&lt;/a&gt; available online<br />
<a href="http://www.cheaper-digital-cameras.uk.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.cheaper-digital-cameras.uk.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: PapaLazzzaru</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-868</link>
		<author>PapaLazzzaru</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2004 14:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-868</guid>
		<description>Ah, but we HAD to invade - if we hadn't, we ourselves could be speaking Iraqi by now. Or Al Quedian. Or something. Apparently, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but we HAD to invade - if we hadn&#8217;t, we ourselves could be speaking Iraqi by now. Or Al Quedian. Or something. Apparently, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Lodjer</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-866</link>
		<author>Lodjer</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2004 13:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-866</guid>
		<description>Quite an elaborate set-up, could always have avoided it by not invading of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite an elaborate set-up, could always have avoided it by not invading of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Smith</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-865</link>
		<author>Kevin Smith</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2004 12:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-865</guid>
		<description>unfortunately it seems like the pics are mild compared to what is happening outside of the photo oppertunities.  but what strong and percise timing to have a story come out to inflame and give terrorists more fuel for their rampant ignorant fire.  as an american again i feel as it's all a set-up for us.  rubbing stuff in our faces.  specially now with these image tactics that spread around like crazy. it seems like these photos were designed to infest and cause more reason to be attacked. you get the collection of photos for the media feed off of.  which cards will they play next.  i'm sure they have tons of great photos and stories to confuse people and stir things up for decades.  i'm just sad seeing all these signs of subliminal warnings and down right in your face warnings about the upcoming terrors that will be inflicted on the US again.  it will be a sad time.  around elections i guess, who knows.  i can only hope to be with friends and family.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>unfortunately it seems like the pics are mild compared to what is happening outside of the photo oppertunities.  but what strong and percise timing to have a story come out to inflame and give terrorists more fuel for their rampant ignorant fire.  as an american again i feel as it&#8217;s all a set-up for us.  rubbing stuff in our faces.  specially now with these image tactics that spread around like crazy. it seems like these photos were designed to infest and cause more reason to be attacked. you get the collection of photos for the media feed off of.  which cards will they play next.  i&#8217;m sure they have tons of great photos and stories to confuse people and stir things up for decades.  i&#8217;m just sad seeing all these signs of subliminal warnings and down right in your face warnings about the upcoming terrors that will be inflicted on the US again.  it will be a sad time.  around elections i guess, who knows.  i can only hope to be with friends and family.</p>
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		<title>By: PapaLazzzaru</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-863</link>
		<author>PapaLazzzaru</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 May 2004 08:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-863</guid>
		<description>To kick off this glorious Monday morning, and obviously to pre-empt any statement on the issue; things have advanced, and British troops are now accused of the same sort of behaviour. 

As an ex-serviceman, firstly let me say that I personally believe the pictures printed in the Daily Mirror were fakes. I'm not condoning the behaviour if it happened, it's just that those pictures are missing a certain something of authenticity. It's easy to mess about with digital photography, and there are plenty of opportunities for bored squaddies or anyone else for that matter to mess about with images to produce pretty much what they want. 

Having said that, I do believe there is always a loutish element to any organisation of blokes, and especially in the male-dominated, testosterone-fuelled confines of an organisation which is (or used to be!) trained to be &#34;physical&#34; on a lot of different levels. Mannish competition, especially in the circles of rugby-clubs and suchlike super-macho inner-circles, is ever-present, bringing with it all the implications of trying to outdo ones competitors. Naturally, this kind of behaviour is tolerated (even encouraged up to a point) within certain limits, and it is only the superior training and discipline of mid-ranking NCOs (troop-level sergeants and staff-sergeants) which sets those limits. Most NCOs I ever knew were of the highest standard in terms of integrity and discipline; I only ever recall 2 or 3 who deviated grossly from this standard.

Having said that; I agree with Libby Purves (The Times, this morning), especially when she says &#34;Army morale has been chipped away by political correctness, a weaselling civilian safety-first culture, and a terror of 'heritage'&#34;. To very briefly paraphrase her; what she says is that of COURSE there is going to exist an underlying current of fear and hatred for Arabs - after all, to the minds of relatively uneducated squaddies (and not all are gorillas; in fact only a very small proportion) it is these people who are deliberately threatening their way of life with terrorist attacks and so on. A little bit of simple propoganda via rags like the Sun and Mirror goes a long way. So childish revenge cannot be ruled out either.

I only hope the MoD investigations do not turn into a quagmire like Deepcut and produce some real answers - although it is too late to repair the damage done in the Middle East to our image, a thorough investigation with some concrete answers may help to redress the balance in at least a small way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To kick off this glorious Monday morning, and obviously to pre-empt any statement on the issue; things have advanced, and British troops are now accused of the same sort of behaviour. </p>
<p>As an ex-serviceman, firstly let me say that I personally believe the pictures printed in the Daily Mirror were fakes. I&#8217;m not condoning the behaviour if it happened, it&#8217;s just that those pictures are missing a certain something of authenticity. It&#8217;s easy to mess about with digital photography, and there are plenty of opportunities for bored squaddies or anyone else for that matter to mess about with images to produce pretty much what they want. </p>
<p>Having said that, I do believe there is always a loutish element to any organisation of blokes, and especially in the male-dominated, testosterone-fuelled confines of an organisation which is (or used to be!) trained to be &quot;physical&quot; on a lot of different levels. Mannish competition, especially in the circles of rugby-clubs and suchlike super-macho inner-circles, is ever-present, bringing with it all the implications of trying to outdo ones competitors. Naturally, this kind of behaviour is tolerated (even encouraged up to a point) within certain limits, and it is only the superior training and discipline of mid-ranking NCOs (troop-level sergeants and staff-sergeants) which sets those limits. Most NCOs I ever knew were of the highest standard in terms of integrity and discipline; I only ever recall 2 or 3 who deviated grossly from this standard.</p>
<p>Having said that; I agree with Libby Purves (The Times, this morning), especially when she says &quot;Army morale has been chipped away by political correctness, a weaselling civilian safety-first culture, and a terror of &#8216;heritage&#8217;&quot;. To very briefly paraphrase her; what she says is that of COURSE there is going to exist an underlying current of fear and hatred for Arabs - after all, to the minds of relatively uneducated squaddies (and not all are gorillas; in fact only a very small proportion) it is these people who are deliberately threatening their way of life with terrorist attacks and so on. A little bit of simple propoganda via rags like the Sun and Mirror goes a long way. So childish revenge cannot be ruled out either.</p>
<p>I only hope the MoD investigations do not turn into a quagmire like Deepcut and produce some real answers - although it is too late to repair the damage done in the Middle East to our image, a thorough investigation with some concrete answers may help to redress the balance in at least a small way.</p>
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		<title>By: Gregory Block</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-862</link>
		<author>Gregory Block</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 May 2004 23:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-862</guid>
		<description>Don't confuse the U.S. military with our own; in the U.S., as a criminal, you may be offered the opportunity to serve in the military rather than serving a prison sentence.  In the U.S., being a good killing machine is good money; a well-paid job that sets you up with a decent education once you get out.

The attitudes of people going in are entirely different; the attitudes while they're in are shaped by the reasons that brought them to the U.S. armed forces in the first place.

The cause is as the cause always was - and it's a long-standing problem inside the American military, and every American knows about it.  The problem is, we have a good laugh about what Army men are like when they're out and about in civvies, but most Americans don't think of the Army as a peacekeeping force.

At least now they know why it's so poorly suited to the job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t confuse the U.S. military with our own; in the U.S., as a criminal, you may be offered the opportunity to serve in the military rather than serving a prison sentence.  In the U.S., being a good killing machine is good money; a well-paid job that sets you up with a decent education once you get out.</p>
<p>The attitudes of people going in are entirely different; the attitudes while they&#8217;re in are shaped by the reasons that brought them to the U.S. armed forces in the first place.</p>
<p>The cause is as the cause always was - and it&#8217;s a long-standing problem inside the American military, and every American knows about it.  The problem is, we have a good laugh about what Army men are like when they&#8217;re out and about in civvies, but most Americans don&#8217;t think of the Army as a peacekeeping force.</p>
<p>At least now they know why it&#8217;s so poorly suited to the job.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncarved Block</title>
		<link>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-861</link>
		<author>Uncarved Block</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/30/496#comment-861</guid>
		<description>I would clearly be wrong to tar the entire US military with the same brush and I feel that it would be unfair to view the actions of these few war criminals as typical. However, I do feel they are symptomatic of an underlying problem. 

The people torturing Iraqis are soldiers, people who are used to obeying orders and only using their initiative within the confines of their mission. When they committed these acts they must have felt that they were consistent with their view of their role in Iraq. I'm not going to claim that their acts are consistent with the US military's view of their role in Iraq but clearly the messages the soldiers are getting are blurred enough to allow these soldiers to believe that torturing Iraqis was acceptable behaviour.

The problem, I think, is that the soldiers think that they are at war. They are not a 'liberation force' and they see Iraqis (and maybe arabs in general) as their enemy. This is generated by Bush's rhetoric about being at war and the US military's approach to dealing with opposition e.g. the bombing and shooting of residents of Falluja. 

I know that there will be condemnation of these atrocities but court-martialling a few squaddies and a sacrificial officer will only tackle a symptom, not the cause.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would clearly be wrong to tar the entire US military with the same brush and I feel that it would be unfair to view the actions of these few war criminals as typical. However, I do feel they are symptomatic of an underlying problem. </p>
<p>The people torturing Iraqis are soldiers, people who are used to obeying orders and only using their initiative within the confines of their mission. When they committed these acts they must have felt that they were consistent with their view of their role in Iraq. I&#8217;m not going to claim that their acts are consistent with the US military&#8217;s view of their role in Iraq but clearly the messages the soldiers are getting are blurred enough to allow these soldiers to believe that torturing Iraqis was acceptable behaviour.</p>
<p>The problem, I think, is that the soldiers think that they are at war. They are not a &#8216;liberation force&#8217; and they see Iraqis (and maybe arabs in general) as their enemy. This is generated by Bush&#8217;s rhetoric about being at war and the US military&#8217;s approach to dealing with opposition e.g. the bombing and shooting of residents of Falluja. </p>
<p>I know that there will be condemnation of these atrocities but court-martialling a few squaddies and a sacrificial officer will only tackle a symptom, not the cause.</p>
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