Comments on: European Constitution http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445 Every day the Prime Minister's Spokesman meets a small coterie of political journalists known as 'the lobby' for a topical chat, or 'briefing'. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:36:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.2 By: Roger Huffadine http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-781 Roger Huffadine Tue, 20 Apr 2004 22:25:04 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-781 OK folk I'll be a minority voice I think the EU and its constitution are not in the best interests of the UK. I have spent enough time in (week long) meetings and negotiations with representatives of the USA and various European Countries to have formed the opinion that we always were and always will be better off with a distance between the UK, Europe and the USA. and I'm sorry to tell some of you 'bloggers' that I am intelligent enough to understand the in's and out's of legal framework documents -and have indeed survived (more than once) the perverse interpretations of legal documents. To opine that Politicians are capable of making decisions on our behalf is to ignore most of what has happened int he last 10 years. I hope that the UK referendum on the EU constitution is the first step of our withdrawal from the EU. and whilst we are at it lets cut our losses on the channel tunnel by filling both ends and using the void for storing oil. OK folk I’ll be a minority voice

I think the EU and its constitution are not in the best interests of the UK.
I have spent enough time in (week long) meetings and negotiations with representatives of the USA and various European Countries to have formed the opinion that we always were and always will be better off with a distance between the UK, Europe and the USA.

and I’m sorry to tell some of you ‘bloggers’ that I am intelligent enough to understand the in’s and out’s of legal framework documents -and have indeed survived (more than once) the perverse interpretations of legal documents.

To opine that Politicians are capable of making decisions on our behalf is to ignore most of what has happened int he last 10 years.

I hope that the UK referendum on the EU constitution is the first step of our withdrawal from the EU.

and whilst we are at it lets cut our losses on the channel tunnel by filling both ends and using the void for storing oil.

]]> By: Ruth http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-779 Ruth Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:15:26 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-779 I don't think there's much chance of the government losing a referendum - historical evidence shows that most governments will pull out all the stops to win a referendum, and Europe usually has enough cross-party support to see it through - even Mrs T wore a 'Vote Yes' t-shirt in the 1975 referendum on Europe. There are plenty of voters, Tory or otherwise who would rather line up behind Ken Clarke than Michael Howard. (Am I the only person who feels vaguely nauseous when hearing him say he 'trusts the peepull'?) It is interesting - given that there are no constitutional grounds for a referendum - to speculate on why Tone thought he had to have one. I suspect that it has more than a little to do with improving his image as a leader who is listening to the public. This has worn a little thin over the last year. I don’t think there’s much chance of the government losing a referendum - historical evidence shows that most governments will pull out all the stops to win a referendum, and Europe usually has enough cross-party support to see it through - even Mrs T wore a ‘Vote Yes’ t-shirt in the 1975 referendum on Europe. There are plenty of voters, Tory or otherwise who would rather line up behind Ken Clarke than Michael Howard. (Am I the only person who feels vaguely nauseous when hearing him say he ‘trusts the peepull’?)

It is interesting - given that there are no constitutional grounds for a referendum - to speculate on why Tone thought he had to have one. I suspect that it has more than a little to do with improving his image as a leader who is listening to the public. This has worn a little thin over the last year.

]]> By: Gregory Block http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-778 Gregory Block Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:20:03 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-778 I don't care if there's a referendum - so long as they're willing to put in the effort to win it. What I don't want to see is a rejected constitution due to a half-hearted effort on the part of the government just so it can get re-elected. If the choice is between a joining of the constitution and a following ousting of Labor from government, or a Labor that sticks and a constitution voted down by the public, I know which one I'd choose to lose. One of the two is important to the long-term economic survival of the country; I believe my opinion on which one may be different than the current government. I don’t care if there’s a referendum - so long as they’re willing to put in the effort to win it. What I don’t want to see is a rejected constitution due to a half-hearted effort on the part of the government just so it can get re-elected.

If the choice is between a joining of the constitution and a following ousting of Labor from government, or a Labor that sticks and a constitution voted down by the public, I know which one I’d choose to lose. One of the two is important to the long-term economic survival of the country; I believe my opinion on which one may be different than the current government.

]]> By: Lodjer http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-777 Lodjer Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:36:06 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-777 Isn't the idea of MP's making a decision on behalf of their voters, for their voters, but not being swayed by the factors which sway the public, somewhat open to misinterpretation and error? if not open abuse? The general public don't have all the facts, and yes it can be assumed to be impossible for all the facts to be presented to the public, also on certain subjects it would be a security risk, and not beneficial. But do the public get enough facts? at what level of public "sway" should the government discount the wishes of the populace? Being pro euro, I am in theory less happy with the idea of a referendum. Most likely it will get voted down by a lot of people who politically and quite possibly personally I don't and wouldn't like. If I were to suggest that because I think they are wrong and have supposedly a less informed and "incorrect" view their opinions don't count then it would be at best very very shaky ground. Isn’t the idea of MP’s making a decision on behalf of their voters, for their voters, but not being swayed by the factors which sway the public, somewhat open to misinterpretation and error? if not open abuse?

The general public don’t have all the facts, and yes it can be assumed to be impossible for all the facts to be presented to the public, also on certain subjects it would be a security risk, and not beneficial.

But do the public get enough facts? at what level of public "sway" should the government discount the wishes of the populace?

Being pro euro, I am in theory less happy with the idea of a referendum. Most likely it will get voted down by a lot of people who politically and quite possibly personally I don’t and wouldn’t like.

If I were to suggest that because I think they are wrong and have supposedly a less informed and "incorrect" view their opinions don’t count then it would be at best very very shaky ground.

]]> By: Chris Lightfoot http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-776 Chris Lightfoot Tue, 20 Apr 2004 00:46:26 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-776 I'm not really sure that representative democracy works that well when considering significant constitutional change. I'd be happier for Parliament to decide whether or not to ratify the Constitution on its own if there were an intervening General Election (as in the 1910 constitutional crisis). For such an issue to be decided by a sitting Government on a whipped vote seems to me to be completely unacceptable. I’m not really sure that representative democracy works that well when considering significant constitutional change. I’d be happier for Parliament to decide whether or not to ratify the Constitution on its own if there were an intervening General Election (as in the 1910 constitutional crisis). For such an issue to be decided by a sitting Government on a whipped vote seems to me to be completely unacceptable.

]]> By: Gregor Hopkins http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-775 Gregor Hopkins Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:36:47 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-775 That may be so, however even though it's their job to think about it, it's in their vested interests to follow the whips and throw their lot in with party policy. In that sense their choice is about as objective as your average Mr Smith on the street. I'm far happier with an open debate that engages with the public than a closed afair in parliament which will only breed more apathy, and likely swell the numbers of the despicable BNP. That may be so, however even though it’s their job to think about it, it’s in their vested interests to follow the whips and throw their lot in with party policy. In that sense their choice is about as objective as your average Mr Smith on the street.

I’m far happier with an open debate that engages with the public than a closed afair in parliament which will only breed more apathy, and likely swell the numbers of the despicable BNP.

]]> By: Benjamin P http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-774 Benjamin P Mon, 19 Apr 2004 20:04:57 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/04/19/445#comment-774 I wholeheartedly disagree with the government changing policy on whether or not a referendum is appropriate. A democracy is signified by representation of the tax-paying public. This system works, and is in place because (a) we couldn't fit every taxpayer into a Parliamentary House (fun as that may be)and (b) because the general public can easily be swayed when either all the facts aren't at hand, or when they have jobs, finances, families etc on their mind. An M.P.'s JOB is to think about, and vote on, major political decisions, so they can make a right decision for the voter's they represent. That is democracy. That is how democracy should be run. I wholeheartedly disagree with the government changing policy on whether or not a referendum is appropriate. A democracy is signified by representation of the tax-paying public. This system works, and is in place because (a) we couldn’t fit every taxpayer into a Parliamentary House (fun as that may be)and (b) because the general public can easily be swayed when either all the facts aren’t at hand, or when they have jobs, finances, families etc on their mind. An M.P.’s JOB is to think about, and vote on, major political decisions, so they can make a right decision for the voter’s they represent. That is democracy. That is how democracy should be run.

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