Comments on: Middle East http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381 Every day the Prime Minister's Spokesman meets a small coterie of political journalists known as 'the lobby' for a topical chat, or 'briefing'. Tue, 06 Jan 2009 05:19:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.2 By: Daniel http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-605 Daniel Thu, 25 Mar 2004 00:40:53 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-605 Fair point Lodjer. Fair point Lodjer.

]]> By: Lodjer http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-590 Lodjer Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:56:01 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-590 This might not be worth tuppence, but here it comes anyways. Worth noting in 1989 (I think) a UN resolution was tabled proposing international co-operation against terrorism. It included specifics of what constituted terrorism, what action could be taken against it, and guidelines for international law condemning and dealing with support for terrorists by govenments. It was vetoed, by the US and Israel. (GB may have abstained) One of the main reasons as given by commentors at the time was the fact that much of Israel's action against people in its own actually fell under the guidelines as de facto terrorism. I am not trying to make any point about who is at faults for the conflict here, just saying what happened (as I remember). This might not be worth tuppence, but here it comes anyways.

Worth noting in 1989 (I think) a UN resolution was tabled proposing international co-operation against terrorism. It included specifics of what constituted terrorism, what action could be taken against it, and guidelines for international law condemning and dealing with support for terrorists by govenments.

It was vetoed, by the US and Israel. (GB may have abstained)

One of the main reasons as given by commentors at the time was the fact that much of Israel’s action against people in its own actually fell under the guidelines as de facto terrorism.

I am not trying to make any point about who is at faults for the conflict here, just saying what happened (as I remember).

]]> By: Uncarved Block http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-587 Uncarved Block Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:30:55 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-587 Just a quick comment to add to the debate between Chris and Papa. One of the biggest influences on US foreign policy with regards to Israel actually comes from the Christian right. They believe that the state of Israel is crucial to the prophecies about the 'second coming' and so believe that they should support Israel against the Arabs. The Christian right are far bigger and more powerful than either the Jewish or Arab 'lobbies' and the fact that the President is straight from the bible belt means that their views tend to get a high priority in US political thinking. Just a quick comment to add to the debate between Chris and Papa.

One of the biggest influences on US foreign policy with regards to Israel actually comes from the Christian right. They believe that the state of Israel is crucial to the prophecies about the ’second coming’ and so believe that they should support Israel against the Arabs. The Christian right are far bigger and more powerful than either the Jewish or Arab ‘lobbies’ and the fact that the President is straight from the bible belt means that their views tend to get a high priority in US political thinking.

]]> By: Daniel http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-580 Daniel Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:25:08 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-580 To put in my twopence worth - I think that there is a strong Jewish lobby in the US. I don't think it directs American policy abroad. However, like any socio-political group (think our trade unions) it will have its' influence and will argue its' point. And the view in the US is that Israel has fought its' corner against overwhelming odds for 50 years. If the US didn't back Israel, it would have been destroyed by the UN and its' Arab majority. There is an Arab lobby in the US, and it is supported by a huge amount of cash from Arab countries. Yet the simple matter is that Western countries know that Israel is doing its' best to remain a democracy. The report refered to above, I understand, considered that the closure of much of Israel over the sabbath was a restriction on people's right to freedom of religon. However, it seems daft to compare the crackdown on what religon can be practised (such as in China) with closing the bagel bakery on a Saturday - thus preventing an atheist a hot bagel for breakfast. There will always be a degree of hostility and distrust within Israeli society while the Palestinian suicide bombers continue. At least Israeli jews do not go around massacring Israeli arabs (Rwanda, Kosovo). It is not perfect and discrimination should be removed - but please consider the context and strength of critiscm. Israel is trying its best to be a strong democracy without allowing its' society (both jew and muslim - the suicide bomb does not distinguish) to be massacred. To put in my twopence worth - I think that there is a strong Jewish lobby in the US. I don’t think it directs American policy abroad. However, like any socio-political group (think our trade unions) it will have its’ influence and will argue its’ point.

And the view in the US is that Israel has fought its’ corner against overwhelming odds for 50 years. If the US didn’t back Israel, it would have been destroyed by the UN and its’ Arab majority.

There is an Arab lobby in the US, and it is supported by a huge amount of cash from Arab countries. Yet the simple matter is that Western countries know that Israel is doing its’ best to remain a democracy. The report refered to above, I understand, considered that the closure of much of Israel over the sabbath was a restriction on people’s right to freedom of religon. However, it seems daft to compare the crackdown on what religon can be practised (such as in China) with closing the bagel bakery on a Saturday - thus preventing an atheist a hot bagel for breakfast.

There will always be a degree of hostility and distrust within Israeli society while the Palestinian suicide bombers continue. At least Israeli jews do not go around massacring Israeli arabs (Rwanda, Kosovo). It is not perfect and discrimination should be removed - but please consider the context and strength of critiscm. Israel is trying its best to be a strong democracy without allowing its’ society (both jew and muslim - the suicide bomb does not distinguish) to be massacred.

]]> By: PapaLazzzaru http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-577 PapaLazzzaru Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:14:30 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-577 Not odd when one considers the range of business and industries owned or run by Jews. This is of course not a criticism of Jews - they, like a lot of Indians and Pakistanis in this country seem to demonstrate a work ethic second to none in my experience. They work to succeed, and by and large they DO succeed. But that's besides the point. Look at how many Jews were displaced throughout Eastern and Central Europe early last century, in a way that probably no other people has been. Naturally a lot of these settled in the US; and again, naturally they succeeded at what they did. It doesn't take a great deal of investigation to look at how many of the big media, IT and telecom companies in the US are run or owned by Jews, or how many of the banks, financial institutions as well as trade in precious metals and stones. All big revenue generating industries. But the fact that such large numbers of Jews were displaced last century would account for the Jewish lobby being more powerful than the Arab lobby (maybe lobby is the wrong word; by lobby I mean large group of people all with certain demands of their political leaders) - I can't think of an occasion in recent history when large numbers of Arabs were displaced and moved westwards. And don't forget, it isn't about sheer numbers but the relative amount of wealth controlled. Not odd when one considers the range of business and industries owned or run by Jews. This is of course not a criticism of Jews - they, like a lot of Indians and Pakistanis in this country seem to demonstrate a work ethic second to none in my experience. They work to succeed, and by and large they DO succeed. But that’s besides the point. Look at how many Jews were displaced throughout Eastern and Central Europe early last century, in a way that probably no other people has been. Naturally a lot of these settled in the US; and again, naturally they succeeded at what they did. It doesn’t take a great deal of investigation to look at how many of the big media, IT and telecom companies in the US are run or owned by Jews, or how many of the banks, financial institutions as well as trade in precious metals and stones. All big revenue generating industries. But the fact that such large numbers of Jews were displaced last century would account for the Jewish lobby being more powerful than the Arab lobby (maybe lobby is the wrong word; by lobby I mean large group of people all with certain demands of their political leaders) - I can’t think of an occasion in recent history when large numbers of Arabs were displaced and moved westwards. And don’t forget, it isn’t about sheer numbers but the relative amount of wealth controlled.

]]> By: Chris Lightfoot http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-576 Chris Lightfoot Tue, 23 Mar 2004 23:04:00 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-576 But by the same argument you'd expect an analogous "Arab lobby" to exert a similar effect -- the American Arab population isn't that much smaller than the American Jewish population. Yet nobody talks about an "Arab lobby" exerting an influence over US policy. Only the "Jewish lobby" has this special distinction. Odd that, isn't it? But by the same argument you’d expect an analogous "Arab lobby" to exert a similar effect — the American Arab population isn’t that much smaller than the American Jewish population. Yet nobody talks about an "Arab lobby" exerting an influence over US policy. Only the "Jewish lobby" has this special distinction. Odd that, isn’t it?

]]> By: PapaLazzzaru http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-575 PapaLazzzaru Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:59:58 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-575 I disagree entirely, Chris - and I don't think for one minute it's conspiracy theory. However, you mistook what I said slightly - I didn't say the Jewish lobby is "directing" US foreign policy; it is however a very powerful lobby (just look at how many banks and financial institutions are originally Jewish in origin, as well as the diamond trade for the past 100 years or so) which can't be ignored, in the same way that the Hispanic lobby is also very powerful, not in terms of hard cash but in terms of sheer numbers. One doesn't have to look very hard at US administrations past and present to see how many people of Jewish descent seem to rise to eminence in US politics - and PLEASE don't tell me it is anti-Semitic to say that. It is a commonly-held belief that the American industrial machine has a big influence on US policy; why should it be so far-fetched that a relatively small number of rich influential Jewish families should also have a say in matters relating to the Middle-East? I disagree entirely, Chris - and I don’t think for one minute it’s conspiracy theory. However, you mistook what I said slightly - I didn’t say the Jewish lobby is "directing" US foreign policy; it is however a very powerful lobby (just look at how many banks and financial institutions are originally Jewish in origin, as well as the diamond trade for the past 100 years or so) which can’t be ignored, in the same way that the Hispanic lobby is also very powerful, not in terms of hard cash but in terms of sheer numbers. One doesn’t have to look very hard at US administrations past and present to see how many people of Jewish descent seem to rise to eminence in US politics - and PLEASE don’t tell me it is anti-Semitic to say that. It is a commonly-held belief that the American industrial machine has a big influence on US policy; why should it be so far-fetched that a relatively small number of rich influential Jewish families should also have a say in matters relating to the Middle-East?

]]> By: DEGREEK http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-573 DEGREEK Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:39:03 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-573 The British press and government do seem to spend an inordinate and disproportionate amount of time fretting about Israel/Palestine when there are just as many if not worse conflicts going on in Africa and other parts of the World. It's a never ending cycle and the threats and counter threats from Hamas and Israel have all been heard before numerous times. Soon there will be more innocent civilians killed on both sides but the numbers are tiny compared to what is going on in Africa. The British press and government do seem to spend an inordinate and disproportionate amount of time fretting about Israel/Palestine when there are just as many if not worse conflicts going on in Africa and other parts of the World.

It’s a never ending cycle and the threats and counter threats from Hamas and Israel have all been heard before numerous times. Soon there will be more innocent civilians killed on both sides but the numbers are tiny compared to what is going on in Africa.

]]> By: Chris Lightfoot http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-571 Chris Lightfoot Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:54:40 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-571 Nonsense. I thought that sort of conspiracy theory died out fifty years ago. The west supports Israel because it's a liberal democracy -- perhaps a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless -- engaged in a violent struggle against enemies who are neither liberal nor democratic and would happily destroy Israel if they were able to do so. There are many valid criticisms to be made of the Israeli government -- personally I find much of the Sharon government's policy extremely distasteful, and I suspect a lot of it is contrary to Israel's interests -- but to complain about a "Jewish lobby" which is directing US policy is paranoid antisemitic rubbish. Nonsense. I thought that sort of conspiracy theory died out fifty years ago. The west supports Israel because it’s a liberal democracy — perhaps a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless — engaged in a violent struggle against enemies who are neither liberal nor democratic and would happily destroy Israel if they were able to do so.

There are many valid criticisms to be made of the Israeli government — personally I find much of the Sharon government’s policy extremely distasteful, and I suspect a lot of it is contrary to Israel’s interests — but to complain about a "Jewish lobby" which is directing US policy is paranoid antisemitic rubbish.

]]> By: PapaLazzzaru http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-570 PapaLazzzaru Tue, 23 Mar 2004 21:18:17 +0000 http://downingstreetsays.com/briefings/2004/03/22/381#comment-570 Come on now people - we should all know by now that Israel is actively supported and financed by successive American administrations because of the hugely rich and powerful Jewish influence at all levels of the government and probably more especially in business. The yanks are never going to "do the right thing" as far as Middle Eastern peace is concerned - apart from invade other countries around the area for no particularly good reason. Even with a change of administration, the American Jewish lobby is too powerful for any government to ignore - hence they have to continue pretending to not notice what goes on in Israel. And in this country, we should all know by now that Tony isn't going to do anything to upset his mate George, so of course he isn't going to say or do very much. Sadly, the only options for a lasting peace in the middle east involve the US swallowing it's pride and stopping it's backing of Israel. Of course, that isn't going to happen. The whole question of who is right and wrong between Israel and Palestine is a question which I don't think will ever be solved, at least not in our lifetime. Personally I think the solutions are simple, but simple solutions are often the most difficult to implement - not least because world leaders rarely dream up simple, logical solutions. In my own lifetime I have seen enough from both sides to suggest they are equally as bad as each other; however, in a lot of respects I would have to condemn Israel as being exactly the kind of rogue state which the two-faced yanks are supposedly seeking to eradicate. We all know about the suicide bombers - one of the few effective weapons left in the Palestinian arsenal. What we don't hear about in quite such gory detail are the snatch squads, assassinations and outright massacres which the Israelis have carried out over the years. Nope, they ain't no saints and never will be - just another example of the massive hypocricy which is international relations today. I would say the world is going to hell in a hand cart, but personally I really do believe that it's already too late. Come on now people - we should all know by now that Israel is actively supported and financed by successive American administrations because of the hugely rich and powerful Jewish influence at all levels of the government and probably more especially in business. The yanks are never going to "do the right thing" as far as Middle Eastern peace is concerned - apart from invade other countries around the area for no particularly good reason. Even with a change of administration, the American Jewish lobby is too powerful for any government to ignore - hence they have to continue pretending to not notice what goes on in Israel. And in this country, we should all know by now that Tony isn’t going to do anything to upset his mate George, so of course he isn’t going to say or do very much. Sadly, the only options for a lasting peace in the middle east involve the US swallowing it’s pride and stopping it’s backing of Israel. Of course, that isn’t going to happen.

The whole question of who is right and wrong between Israel and Palestine is a question which I don’t think will ever be solved, at least not in our lifetime. Personally I think the solutions are simple, but simple solutions are often the most difficult to implement - not least because world leaders rarely dream up simple, logical solutions. In my own lifetime I have seen enough from both sides to suggest they are equally as bad as each other; however, in a lot of respects I would have to condemn Israel as being exactly the kind of rogue state which the two-faced yanks are supposedly seeking to eradicate. We all know about the suicide bombers - one of the few effective weapons left in the Palestinian arsenal. What we don’t hear about in quite such gory detail are the snatch squads, assassinations and outright massacres which the Israelis have carried out over the years. Nope, they ain’t no saints and never will be - just another example of the massive hypocricy which is international relations today. I would say the world is going to hell in a hand cart, but personally I really do believe that it’s already too late.

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